DS Training (update) 1/06/10

[Gepard]

I've always viewed this as a landmark purely because it's a public acknowledgement by the SIA that open palms doesn't (ever?) work.

I think give it 5 years, we'll see another 20-30 people (hopefully not DS!) dying on nights out through poorly done ejections and the training will be improved again. It's a slow, painstaking way but that's the way governement policy is done. Nothing drives change faster than public pressure caused by deaths - look at M-Kat.

[KeithB]

[/quote]
Kieth,did you honestly think the new training requirement would be anything but a watered down un failable box ticking exercise?.Thats why in the past I have posted that I dont think the extra training is worthwhile.My biggest fear is the a new DS armed with the belief that the techniques they have been briefly taught will enable them to remove drunk,drugged trouble makers.As the saying goes a little knowledge is worse than non at all[/quote]

Totally agree mate this why I am contemplating delivering this watered down crap or moving training away from the Security Sector all together! it is a hard decision to make, This is why I will sell the module when it eventually becomes compulsary for everyone (if thats what happens) but as a 2 day course with restrictive techniques including. It just does not sit right with me issuing a certificate to someone who has had a 6 hour course on low level techniques. It may end up I wont do much work with DS but I dont want to be delivering shite training, as I pride myself in delivering professional training, and this does not fit into that remit.

KeithB

[charles]

I've always viewed this as a landmark purely because it's a public acknowledgement by the SIA that open palms doesn't (ever?) work.

I think give it 5 years, we'll see another 20-30 people (hopefully not DS!) dying on nights out through poorly done ejections and the training will be improved again. It's a slow, painstaking way but that's the way governement policy is done. Nothing drives change faster than public pressure caused by deaths - look at M-Kat.

My bold: Fully agree,

In certain situations over the past few years in my location 'normal standard Industry' training simply was'nt enough to deal with & yes we all know when the chips are down we go into hyperdrive to resolve the situation & do whats neccessary.

[karlbee]

Kieth,did you honestly think the new training requirement would be anything but a watered down un failable box ticking exercise?.Thats why in the past I have posted that I dont think the extra training is worthwhile.My biggest fear is the a new DS armed with the belief that the techniques they have been briefly taught will enable them to remove drunk,drugged trouble makers.As the saying goes a little knowledge is worse than non at all[/quote]

Totally agree mate this why I am contemplating delivering this watered down crap or moving training away from the Security Sector all together! it is a hard decision to make, This is why I will sell the module when it eventually becomes compulsary for everyone (if thats what happens) but as a 2 day course with restrictive techniques including. It just does not sit right with me issuing a certificate to someone who has had a 6 hour course on low level techniques. It may end up I wont do much work with DS but I dont want to be delivering shite training, as I pride myself in delivering professional training, and this does not fit into that remit.

KeithB[/quote]
Well done Kieth for making a stand.I hope people in your area apreciate what you stand for and go with your longer course.For me its better to spend 2 days been correctly trained than waste 6 hours on what is been proposed.

[karlbee]

I've always viewed this as a landmark purely because it's a public acknowledgement by the SIA that open palms doesn't (ever?) work.

I think give it 5 years, we'll see another 20-30 people (hopefully not DS!) dying on nights out through poorly done ejections and the training will be improved again. It's a slow, painstaking way but that's the way governement policy is done. Nothing drives change faster than public pressure caused by deaths - look at M-Kat.

Where is the public acknowledgement? open palms is still in there. Listening to the news in the car all day Tuesday,it came over to me that all the general public will think is that pre 1st June DS didnt know how to get someone out of a pub,now after June 1st by magic they do.

[Gepard]

I've always viewed this as a landmark purely because it's a public acknowledgement by the SIA that open palms doesn't (ever?) work.

I think give it 5 years, we'll see another 20-30 people (hopefully not DS!) dying on nights out through poorly done ejections and the training will be improved again. It's a slow, painstaking way but that's the way governement policy is done. Nothing drives change faster than public pressure caused by deaths - look at M-Kat.

Where is the public acknowledgement? open palms is still in there. Listening to the news in the car all day Tuesday,it came over to me that all the general public will think is that pre 1st June DS didnt know how to get someone out of a pub,now after June 1st by magic they do.

Because it goes beyond that. Up to now trainers 'had' to go quiet when asked what if that different work.


How come as well all the comments are in regard to PI training? Isn't it the same case for the FA? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing etc? How many people will have a serious condition and yet some DS will have a go will all the best intentions, yet diagnose incorrectly and make the problem worse?

[karlbee]

Totaly agree with you about first aid.A few years ago my Hds and I were been sued after tending to someone that had been knocked out,to cut a long story short he disgharged himself from hospital went home and had a stroke.His lawyers were using the arguement that as were not trained we should not have done anything.Took 6 months to get it thrown out.The problem is that good training can never be made compulsary as training has to fit all

[Andy123]

so watching that then someone throws a punch and you knock it away and say "come on be realistic you need to calm down" and there you go conflict over!

Why have we never thought of doing that???

Yes conflict is over if you show that you want to understand where ther coming from. I deal with situations weekly within venues that shall we say are not wise to be in and DS look at me and say put your two pence in and I have not come across a situation where the person as not calmed down. DS in this day and are to quick to call the team and get all high and mighty which in it self can create a worse situation.

That shows me a DS who knows his job and a jacket filler. I do understand that getting a drunk person to calm down and be normal is blatantly impossible but give a man a radio and that's where half the problem starts. Not being negative but that is reality. A good DS will always try to find out why a situation happened and not what happened

Thanks Andy

[noise stopper]

so watching that then someone throws a punch and you knock it away and say "come on be realistic you need to calm down" and there you go conflict over!

Why have we never thought of doing that???

Yes conflict is over if you show that you want to understand where ther coming from. I deal with situations weekly within venues that shall we say are not wise to be in and DS look at me and say put your two pence in and I have not come across a situation where the person as not calmed down. DS in this day and are to quick to call the team and get all high and mighty which in it self can create a worse situation.

That shows me a DS who knows his job and a jacket filler. I do understand that getting a drunk person to calm down and be normal is blatantly impossible but give a man a radio and that's where half the problem starts. Not being negative but that is reality. A good DS will always try to find out why a situation happened and not what happened

Thanks Andy

A lot of the old coppers up north used to say that when radios first came in the younger lads were getting into all kinds of grief as they were suddenly getting to incidents far too quickly!

[WtD_Oracle]

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/news/Mixe ... ticle.html

Exeter bouncers have welcomed new rules which would see door staff learn safe restraint and removal of drunk and violent revellers.

The mandatory training, which came into force this week, follows high profile deaths and injuries in bars and nightclubs across the country.

The rules currently apply only to new door staff who have never worked in the industry before.

Door supervisors in Exeter say the training is an "exceptionally good idea". Several of the city's bouncers have been assaulted and suffered injuries during their career.

Exeter Door Supervisors' Association chairman Jim Myers said: "Door staff must always expect the unexpected. It is a dog eat dog culture and some people will do their best to get one up on you. Door supervisors are often seen as trophies, and people will attack us for that reason alone.

"This new training is more important now than ever before. There is a day-to-day risk in the job we do, and I bet there isn't a door supervisor in Exeter who doesn't leave his house for work wondering if something might happen to him that night — it's just that sort of job."

Mr Myers said he had been attacked several times during his 23 years as a door supervisor.

"I started my career in Union Street in Plymouth and got hit in the face twice with a chair," he said. "I've been threatened with a glass bottle and have regularly had verbal abuse.

"This new training is an exceptionally good idea."

Bouncers and other security staff already receive training in non-physical skills before they can legally work in the UK.

But now that training must also include physical intervention techniques like safe restraint and ejection.

The move is part of a widespread shake-up of the door supervisor licence, which now includes lessons in first aid and terrorism awareness.

But groups representing bars and clubs have raised doubts over the cost of the scheme and whether the lessons are appropriate.

Nick Bish, chief executive of the Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers, said: "We deplore anything that results in injury. But if someone commits an assault, then the law is there to prosecute them.

"We do not see the need for door staff to become paramedics or police — it's a step too far."

The Home Office is now consulting on measures to roll out the new training to all existing bouncers with compulsory top-up training every two years. A final decision is expected later this year.

[Mattsmith1990]

Every 2 years! Whos betting that the length of a license drops to 2 to accommodate this.